{"id":5738,"date":"2023-09-19T17:43:05","date_gmt":"2023-09-19T21:43:05","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5738"},"modified":"2025-01-08T20:07:55","modified_gmt":"2025-01-09T01:07:55","slug":"appendix-a-an-imagined-and-incomplete-conversation-about-consciousness-and-ai-across-time","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5738","title":{"rendered":"Appendix A: An Imagined and Incomplete Conversation about \u201cConsciousness\u201d and \u201cAI,\u201d Across Time"},"content":{"rendered":"

Every so often, I think about the fact of one of the best things my advisor and committee members <\/span>let me<\/span> write and include in my actual doctoral <\/span>dissertation, and <\/span>I smile a bit, and since I keep wanting to share it out into the world, I figured I should put it somewhere more accessible.<\/span><\/p>\n

So with all of that said, we now rejoin An Imagined and Incomplete Conversation about <\/u>\u201cConsciousness\u201d and \u201cAI,\u201d Across Time<\/u>, already (still, seemingly unendingly) in progress:
\n<\/u><\/p>\n

Ren\u00e9 Descartes<\/u><\/strong> (1637):
\nThe physical and the mental have nothing to do with each other. Mind\/soul is the only real part of a person.<\/p>\n

Norbert Wiener<\/u><\/strong> (1948):
\nI don\u2019t know about that \u201conly real part\u201d business, but the mind is absolutely the seat of the command and control architecture of information and the ability to reflexively reverse entropy based on context, and input\/output feedback loops.<\/p>\n

Alan Turing<\/u><\/strong> (1952):
\nHuh. I wonder if what computing machines do can reasonably be considered thinking?<\/p>\n

Wiener<\/u><\/strong>:
\nI dunno about \u201cthinking,\u201d but if you mean \u201cpockets of decreasing entropy in a framework in which the larger mass of entropy tends to increase,\u201d then oh for sure, dude.<\/p>\n

John Von Neumann<\/u><\/strong> (1958):
\nWow things sure are changing fast in science and technology; we should maybe slow down and think about this before that change hits a point beyond our ability to meaningfully direct and shape it\u2014 a singularity, if you will.<\/p>\n

Clynes & Klines<\/u><\/strong> (1960):
\nYou know, it\u2019s funny you should mention how fast things are changing because one day we\u2019re gonna be able to have automatic tech in our bodies that lets us pump ourselves full of chemicals to deal with the rigors of space; btw, have we told you about this new thing we\u2019re working on called \u201cantidepressants?\u201d<\/p>\n

Gordon Moore<\/u><\/strong> (1965):
\nRight now an integrated circuit has 64 transistors, and they keep getting smaller, so if things keep going the way they\u2019re going, in ten years they\u2019ll have 65 THOUSAND. :-O<\/p>\n

Donna Haraway<\/u><\/strong> (1991):
\nWe\u2019re all already cyborgs bound up in assemblages of the social, biological, and techonological, in relational reinforcing systems with each other. Also do you like dogs?<\/p>\n

Ray Kurzweil<\/u><\/strong> (1999):
\nHoly Shit, did you hear that?! Because of the pace of technological change, we\u2019re going to have a singularity where digital electronics will be indistinguishable from the very fabric of reality! They\u2019ll be part of our bodies! Our minds will be digitally uploaded immortal cyborg AI Gods!<\/p>\n

Tech Bros<\/u><\/strong>:
\nWow, so true, dude; that makes a lot of sense when you think about it; I mean maybe not \u201cGods\u201d so much as \u201cartificial super intelligences,\u201d but yeah.<\/p>\n

90\u2019s TechnoPagans<\/u><\/strong>:
\nI mean\u2026 Yeah? It\u2019s all just a recapitulation of The Art in multiple technoscientific forms across time. I mean (*takes another hit of salvia*) if you think about the timeless nature of multidimensional spiritual architectures, we\u2019re already\u2014<\/p>\n

DARPA<\/u><\/strong>:
\nWait, did that guy just say something about \u201cUploading\u201d and \u201cCyborg\/AI Gods?\u201d We got anybody working on that?? Well GET TO IT!<\/p>\n

Disabled People, Trans Folx, BIPOC Populations, Women<\/u><\/strong>:
\nWait, so our prosthetics, medications, and relational reciprocal entanglements with technosocial systems of this world in order to survive makes us cyborgs?!<\/em><\/strong> :-O<\/p>\n

[Simultaneously:]<\/p>\n

Kurzweil\/90\u2019s TechnoPagans\/Tech Bros\/DARPA<\/u><\/strong>:
\nNot like that.
\nWiener\/Clynes & Kline<\/u><\/strong>:
\nYes, exactly.<\/p>\n

Haraway<\/u><\/strong>:
\nI mean it\u2019s really interesting to consider, right?<\/p>\n

Tech Bros<\/u><\/strong>:
\nActually, if you think about the bidirectional nature of time, and the likelihood of simulationism, it\u2019s almost certain that there\u2019s already an Artificial Super Intelligence, and it HATES YOU; you should probably try to build it\/never think about it, just in case.<\/p>\n

90\u2019s TechnoPagans<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u2026That\u2019s what we JUST SAID.<\/p>\n

Philosophers of Religion (To Each Other)<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u2026Did they just Pascal\u2019s Wager Anselm\u2019s Ontological Argument, but computers?<\/p>\n

Timnit Gebru and other \u201cAI\u201d Ethicists<\/u><\/strong>:
\nHey, y\u2019all? There\u2019s a LOT of really messed up stuff in these models you started building.<\/p>\n

Disabled People, Trans Folx, BIPOC Populations, Women<\/u><\/strong>:
\nRight?<\/p>\n

Anthony Levandowski<\/u><\/strong>:
\nI\u2019m gonna make an AI god right now! And a CHURCH!<\/p>\n

The General Public<\/u><\/strong>:
\nWait, do you people actually believe this?<\/p>\n

Microsoft\/Google\/IBM\/Facebook<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u2026Which answer will make you give us more money?<\/p>\n

Timnit Gebru and other \u201cAI\u201d Ethicists<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u2026We\u2019re pretty sure there might be some problems with the design architectures, too\u2026<\/p>\n

Some STS Theorists<\/u><\/strong>:
\nHonestly this is all a little eugenics-y\u2014 like, both the technoscientific and<\/em><\/strong> the religious bits; have you all sought out any marginalized people who work on any of this stuff? Like, at all??<\/p>\n

Disabled People, Trans Folx, BIPOC Populations, Women<\/u><\/strong>:
\nHahahahah! \u2026Oh you\u2019re serious?<\/p>\n

Anthony Levandowski<\/u><\/strong>:
\nWait, no, nevermind about the church.<\/p>\n

Some \u201cAI\u201d Engineers<\/u><\/strong>:
\nI think the things we\u2019re working on might be conscious, or even have souls.<\/p>\n

\u201cAI\u201d Ethicists\/Some STS Theorists<\/u><\/strong>:
\nAnybody? These prejudices???<\/p>\n

Wiener\/Tech Bros\/DARPA\/Microsoft\/Google\/IBM\/Facebook<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u201cSouls?\u201d Pfffft. Look at these whackjobs, over here. \u201cSouls.\u201d We\u2019re talking about the technological singularity, mind uploading into an eternal digital universal superstructure, and the inevitability of timeless artificial super intelligences; who said anything about \u201cSouls?\u201d<\/p>\n

Ren\u00e9 Descartes\/90\u2019s TechnoPagans\/Philosophers of Religion\/Some STS Theorists\/Some \u201cAI\u201d Engineers<\/u><\/strong>:
\n\u2026<\/p>\n

[Scene]<\/p>\n

\n

Read more of this kind of thing at:
\nWilliams, Damien Patrick. Belief, Values, Bias, and Agency: Development of and Entanglement with “Artificial Intelligence.”<\/em> PhD diss., Virginia Tech, 2022. https:\/\/vtechworks.lib.vt.edu\/handle\/10919\/111528<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Every so often, I think about the fact of one of the best things my advisor and committee members let me write and include in my actual doctoral dissertation, and I smile a bit, and since I keep wanting to share it out into the world, I figured I should put it somewhere more accessible. […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[1],"tags":[1118,22,1047,1400,1446,951,73,1335,1198,85,86,1004,1330,1294,1090,204,206,954,207,208,1512,1324,1325,240,1116,1117,245,246,984,1147,1086,1210,271,1336,1075,278,280,1209,294,1402,1510,953,1196,1138,418,419,1509,447,1399,1089,497,498,1328,1100,1329,560,561,562,1338,1327,1208,584,1217,585,586,1337,594,1186,978,624,627,1264,628,1025,1026,1332,648,649,1121,684,1511,701,947,1229,1230,1132,769,1098,1099,1233,1296,807,1404,1030,811,958,1068,1483,1213,968,1135],"class_list":["post-5738","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-ableism","tag-afrofuturism","tag-alan-turing","tag-alison-kafer","tag-alterity","tag-anselms-ontological-argument-for-the-existence-of-god","tag-artificial-intelligence","tag-astrobiology","tag-audio","tag-autonomous-created-intelligence","tag-autonomous-generated-intelligence","tag-autonomously-creative-intelligence","tag-bodies-in-space","tag-bodyminds","tag-communication","tag-cybernetics","tag-cyborg","tag-cyborg-anthropology","tag-cyborg-ecology","tag-cyborgs","tag-darpa","tag-decolonization","tag-decolonizing-mars","tag-digital","tag-disability","tag-disability-studies","tag-distributed-machine-consciousness","tag-distributed-networked-intelligence","tag-donna-haraway","tag-economics","tag-electronic-personhood","tag-embodied-cognition","tag-embodied-machine-consciousness","tag-engineering","tag-epistemology","tag-ethics","tag-eugenics","tag-extended-mind-hypothesis","tag-feminist-ethics","tag-gender-bodies-and-technology","tag-gordon-moore","tag-human-augmentation","tag-inspiration-porn","tag-intersectionality","tag-invisible-architecture-of-bias","tag-invisible-architectures-of-bias","tag-john-von-neumann","tag-journalism","tag-kimberle-williams-crenshaw","tag-language","tag-magic","tag-magick","tag-manfred-e-clynes","tag-mars","tag-mental-health","tag-my-words","tag-my-work","tag-my-writing","tag-nasa","tag-nathan-s-kline","tag-nonhuman-animals","tag-nonhuman-personhood","tag-nonwestern-philosophy","tag-norbert-wiener","tag-normalization","tag-nutrition","tag-occult","tag-pascals-wager","tag-personhood-rights","tag-phenomenology","tag-philosophy","tag-philosophy-of-engineering","tag-philosophy-of-mind","tag-philosophy-of-science","tag-philosophy-of-technology","tag-political-science","tag-pop-culture","tag-popular-culture","tag-prosthetics","tag-racism","tag-ray-kurzweil","tag-religious-studies","tag-rene-descartes","tag-science-and-technology-studies","tag-science-technology-and-society","tag-sexism","tag-sociology","tag-space","tag-space-travel","tag-sts","tag-symbols","tag-teaching","tag-technoableism","tag-technological-ethics","tag-technology","tag-the-occult","tag-the-ship-of-theseus","tag-timnit-gebru","tag-transcripts","tag-transhumanism","tag-transphobia"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p5WByP-1uy","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":4859,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=4859","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":0},"title":"My First Appearance on Mindful Cyborgs","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"April 29, 2015","format":false,"excerpt":"I sat down with Klint Finley of\u00a0Mindful Cyborgs to talk about many, many things: \u2026pop culture portrayals of human enhancement and artificial intelligence and why we need to craft more nuanced narratives to explore these topics\u2026 Tune in next week to hear Damien talk about how AI and transhumanism intersects\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"A Future Worth Thinking About\"","block_context":{"text":"A Future Worth Thinking About","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=a-future-worth-thinking-about"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":5316,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5316","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":1},"title":"My Appearance on The Machine Ethics Podcast’s A.I. Retreat Episode","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"October 23, 2018","format":false,"excerpt":"As you already know, we went to the second Juvet A.I. Retreat, back in September. If you want to hear several of us talk about what we got up to at the then you're in luck because here are several conversations conducted by Ben Byford of the Machine Ethics Podcast.\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"algorithmic bias\"","block_context":{"text":"algorithmic bias","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=algorithmic-bias"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/img.youtube.com\/vi\/ownE2zxTN2U\/0.jpg?resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":5276,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5276","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":2},"title":"Nonhuman and Nonbiological Phenomenology","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"May 15, 2018","format":false,"excerpt":"Late last month, I was at Theorizing the Web, in NYC, to moderate Panel B3, \"Bot Phenomenology,\" in which I was very grateful to moderate a panel of people I was very lucky to be able to bring together. Johnathan Flowers, Emma Stamm, and Robin Zebrowski were my interlocutors in\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"alterity\"","block_context":{"text":"alterity","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=alterity"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":5039,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5039","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":3},"title":"Direct Link For “The Metaphysical Cyborg”","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"July 31, 2016","format":false,"excerpt":"Here's the direct link to my paper 'The Metaphysical Cyborg' from Laval Virtual 2013. Here's the abstract: \"In this brief essay, we discuss the nature of the kinds of conceptual changes which will be necessary to bridge the divide between humanity and machine intelligences. From cultural shifts to biotechnological integration,\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"artificial intelligence\"","block_context":{"text":"artificial intelligence","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=artificial-intelligence"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":4864,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=4864","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":4},"title":"My Second Appearance on Mindful Cyborgs","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"May 6, 2015","format":false,"excerpt":"\"Mindful Cyborgs - Episode 55 - Magick & the Occult within the Internet and Corporations with Damien Williams, PT 2\" So, here we are, again, this time talking about magic[k] and the occult and nonhuman consciousness and machine minds and perception, and on and on and on. It's funny. I\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"A Future Worth Thinking About\"","block_context":{"text":"A Future Worth Thinking About","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=a-future-worth-thinking-about"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":5347,"url":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?p=5347","url_meta":{"origin":5738,"position":5},"title":"“Consciousness and Conscious Machines: What\u2019s At Stake?”","author":"Damien P. Williams","date":"January 16, 2019","format":false,"excerpt":"[This paper was prepared for the 2019 Towards Conscious AI Systems Symposium co-located with the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence 2019 Spring Symposium Series. Much of this work derived from my final presentation at the 2017 SRI Technology and Consciousness Workshop Series: \"Science, Ethics, Epistemology, and Society: Gains\u2026","rel":"","context":"In \"A Future Worth Thinking About\"","block_context":{"text":"A Future Worth Thinking About","link":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/?tag=a-future-worth-thinking-about"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/disabilityprotest.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/disabilityprotest.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/disabilityprotest.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/01\/disabilityprotest.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x"},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5738","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=5738"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5738\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5886,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/5738\/revisions\/5886"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=5738"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=5738"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/afutureworththinkingabout.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=5738"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}